The Klingon empire is on the verge of civil war! Gowron is set to take command of the Klingon High Council, though he is challenged by a surprise son of Duras. But these episodes are full of surprises: Tasha Yar has a Romulan daughter! Worf quits Starfleet! Guinan is a sharpshooter! Danger lurks around every celestial body when we put Redemption and Redemption II in the Mission Log.
Tags: Akagi, B'Etor, Barbara March, Ben Slack, blockade, Christopher Hobson, civil war, Cliff Bole, David Carson, Denise Crosby, discommendation, Duras, Endeavour, Fran Bennett, Gowron, Gwyneth Walsh, Hermes, high council, Hornet, J.D. Callum, K'Tal, Khitomer, Klingon, Kurn, Larg, Lursa, Michael Hagerty, Mogh, net, Qo'nos, Redemption, Robert O'Reilly, Romulan, Romulus, Ronald D. Moore, Sela, Shanthi, Starbase 234, Sutherland, tachyon, Tasha Yar, The Next Generation, The Next Generation Season 4, The Next Generation Season 5, Tian An Men, Timothy Carhart, TNG, Tony Todd, Toral, USS Hathaway
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! STILL one of my all time favorite eps! Data in command. LOTS of Klingons. Gowron of the crazy eyes! Cleavage that, ahem, titillated the teen-aged me. And of course, leaving season 4 for 5.
OK, I’m an easy mark for Trek song parodies. Well done, sir!
Seconding that – well done, JusenkyoGuide.
I get why you do it this way, but I think it’s kind of a shame you don’t cover the episodes individually.
This is probably the one time we should have done them separately. We try to approach them all on a case-by-case basis, and up until now it made more sense to treat one story arc as one podcast. We’ll see what happens in the future!
You guys do a great job either way!
If memory serves… only one Trek two-parter fails to be an actual two-parter. That’s Season 6’s ‘Birthright Part I & Part II.’ They barely intersect. So, if you want to split those, knock yourself out.
I don’t know if it needed 2 podcasts, but I think it needed some separation between the recaps. Perhaps trivia, recap of part 1, discussion of part 1, recap of part 2, discussion.
I like them together..
I agree, the cliffhanger of Worf quitting was a dramatic moment watching this live.
it’s a dramatic moment even now IMO.
Ya, but the having to wait months to know what would happen makes it so dramatic.
Yeah I suppose that did make for some actual tension for the fans to squirm under. Like that time that Locutus was on the screen and Riker says “FIRE!” and then the show goes off the air for a few months. haha
Soooooooo much plot in this (these) episode (s). BTW, I’m in the ‘do the two-parters together’ camp. It really helps give us the overview. I can only jot down random thoughts, because there’s so much to cover: I’m amazed you didn’t throw in confirmation that L’Ursa and B’Etor are as real as Khan… in the chestal region. **runs many kellicams away and hides**. Data should have used his android strength to rip off one of Hobson’s arms and beat him to death with it for insubordination; seriously, once is one thing, but every time Data speaks Hobson mouths off. When Worf resigns, the drama of the moment is not helped by the clear plastic-on-plastic sound of his com-badge hitting the table top. I wish they would have foley’d something. Anyhoo… Great ep and great podcast. BTW, John you might want to rethink a future in Klingon dinner theatre. The crowd can turn ugly:
Ha! Great notes (and bonus points for the use of Kellicams). Yeah, problem with Klingon dinner theatre is the theatre. And the dinner.
Come for the Tennessee Williams, stay for the gagh.
The Klingon version of the Voice is also a little unusual:
But it’s done with such passion!
Ahhh, Redemption, or A Private Little [Civil] War. Followed by Redemption II: Klingon Boogaloo!
I’m totally on board with Ken wanting his escapist entertainment to feature Better People Than Us. Totally on board with that. Now, the heart of drama is watching a character overcome the prevailing winds and do the right thing, overcoming temptation/peer pressure/alien mind control/what have you, but the modern tendency toward the dark antihero – Wolverine, Dexter, Walter White, what have you – has had me giving up a lot of modern TV and…well…scurrying back to the safety of rewatching TNG. Or shows like Lost and The 4400 and the rebooted Battlestar Galactica from ten-and-change years ago, where the nominal Good Guys take turns acting like right bastards from week to week. If I want death, horror, and the reptilian part of the human brain come to the fore…I’ve got the real life, present day news for that. Especially from the past 24-36 hours as I write this.
Who does the Klingons’ laundry? Other Klingons! What do they do while they’re waiting at the laundromat? FIGHT!! “My dryer sheets will leave my load the softest! Your load has a less pleasant scent and NO HONOR!” Actually, there’s something of an answer to this in the DS9 “You Are Cordially Invited” episode – the women run the great family Houses (i.e. Lursa and B’etor jockeying on behalf of the House of Duras, Sirella ruling the House of Martok with an iron first), and then roll their eyes as the men beat their chests and make a lot of bad-biker-boys-at-the-bar noise. I have a feeling the men then have to pay for this by doing some milk runs and laundry, scooping the targ’s ltterbox, that sort of thing. But that would be jumping the timeline, which is really more Guinan’s specialty.
Speaking of which, I wish they would have gone ahead and nailed down something like Guinan being even peripherally aware of every other Guinan in every other possible/potential timeline, which would be a fascinating little character tic that would explain how she is able to seemingly carry this knowledge from one timeline to the next. But that would be such a big concept to explore that either the show is about her, or you wind up with Guinan Knows Best, tonight at 11:35 after Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Soundtrack geekery moment: I really dig the music when Data shows a glimmer of intuition and starts sussing out the Romulan plan. Sure, it’s no Space Rockers, but I like it.
Really looking forward to next week – it’s one of my two favorite episodes of the entire series.
Interesting point about Guinan. Wonder if something like that was ever discussed.
And Klingon laundries are the worst laundries.
You’re wrong about the laundries, John. I use one; their motto is “Today is a Good Day to Dry!”
(Thank you, I’ll be here all week)
the High Council would turn their backs on you for that joke.
Ahhh, phooey on them! They got too much starch in their baldrics!
They don’t laugh much either.
Klingons Need Kittens.
(There’s the new T-shirt logo, guys)
“Klingon Boob Window!”
“The sons of Soong are reunited and together they wi–”
“Mogh — The sons of Mogh. We’re the sons of Mogh, not the sons of Soong.”
“Oh, right — Mogh.”
“The sons of Soong line isn’t until two finales from now.”
“How could I have forgotten?”
“Indeed. So, you were saying?”
“Before I interrupted you. You were proclaiming something.”
“Oh, yeah, uh — Whatever. Uh, na na, na na, na na, na na, Mogh Sons!”
“Great job — Idiot.”
More of the “Worf runs the Empire from a distance” arc. Also, if you like this story, just wait about a year and a half for them to rerun it as second season opener of Ds9 (only far less interestingly).
“What is, by definition, an internal Klingon matter.”
“Uh, would everyone stop saying that?!?”
“Sure, but I mean, stop saying that exact phrase. It’s weird when two people use the exact same phrase like that.”
“Ah, I see what you mean. Then: No, I’ll say what I like.”
Btw: Always good to mention, when discussing the origin of the Bird of Prey in Star Trek 3, that it was supposed to be Romulan ship, which is why it has the name of a Romulan TOS ship. But, as they mention, there was a technology exchange with the Klingons, hence the Romulans using the Klingon ships in their second appearance. Cloaks for warps, one imagines. I guess it was also a two way street for ship designs.
Of course this has nothing to do with the episode, and relates to the ad, but anyway …
All good details though!
Gowran: “Hope and Change!”
Klingon Councillor #1: “We must devote ourselves to ensuring that Gowran is a one term Chancellor.”
Councillor #2: “What does one term mean?”
Councillor #1: “Oh, that means we plan to murder him at the first opportunity.”
Councillor #2: “Gotcha.”
Redemption (1) was a flat, cumbersome disappointment of a finale, whereas Redemption II felt like it had much more energy and direction. At the same time, I have never cared for episodes touching Klingon politics. I didn’t care for the two-parter no matter how much better the conclusion was than the intro. My brain hurts to think about the implications of the Sela outcome from “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, and as I much as I accepted it as a plot device, Denise Crosby’s ineffectual portrayal of the character was another disappointment. Robert O’Reilly and Tony Todd did a great job in their roles, but that’s all I can that is positive about the episodes. All in all, I couldn’t wait to move on…
…ESPECIALLY since we’re moving to what I consider one of the top two or three episodes in ALL of the Trek canon! Better than “City on the Edge of Forever”! Better than “Best of Both Worlds”! Even slightly better than “Measure of A Man”. I submit to you that “Darmok” represents the best of Trek no matter how you look at it, and if you guys can come up with any good, substantial argument against any aspect of it, I’ll be shocked. But: I’ll also respect Mission Log even more if you’re able to do such a thing. Until then…
Here’s one: “Darmok” might actually be TOO good at what it sets out to do. I’ve never liked the episode, though I’ve always gotten its point (and I don’t consider it bad, I just don’t like it). The Enterprise and The Children of Tama can’t communicate with one another, so they both do that annoying “stereotypical American tourist in Paris/anywhere else” by repeating thing slowly and loudly and hoping that’ll take things from 0% comprehension to however much they’d actually need, and all they end up with is blank stares and more gibberish tossed back at them, slowly and loudly. The captain kidnaps Picard, and they yell at each other on the surface. Riker and the Tamarian first officer yell at each other too.
When I purchased my first computer, I was given one piece of advice:
There are two things you never skimp on, the monitor and the keyboard (/mouse),
because those are the only two parts of the computer that you are directly, physically interfacing with, your hands and your eyes. If you have ANY problems with either of them, no
matter how small, they’re going to impact everything else. Well, “Darmok” is hard for me to listen to and to connect with emotionally, the two most important things about watching a movie/show, because
the only emotion I feel when watching it is frustration, from every single character, for
95% of the episode. Even when I know what the Tamarians are trying to say, all the frustration is right there on the surface. Everyone’s upset, and so I quickly become so as well.
I get it. The episode’s all about the difficulties surrounded basic communication between peoples who want to connect, but can’t figure out how because of completely different perspectives. It could be examining exploration and relating in the most fundamental way. But it’s 40+ minutes of constant frustration. It’s not fun to watch. Which means it’s really effective at getting its point across. At least “City” and “Measure” and “Best” are largely entertaining, since their stories are straight-forward and can be enjoyed without the occasional break to beat on my couch cushions.
I may not even watch the episode before next week. Or even listen to it. I don’t think enough time has passed since last time. I don’t think I’m ready.
Interesting! I can see where your frustration might come from, but I just don’t feel it. The opening back-and-forth felt like an honest attempt at communicating, the Tamarian captain decided on the next step, and then the kidnapping put the two ships in conflict with each other. This set-up always felt justifiable to me. It does make me wonder how the Federation-Tamarian relationship went afterward, however.
Just watched “Darmok” in preparation for my weekly “class”. lol “Science Fiction 200, an in depth analysis of Star Trek: The Next Generation”- I enjoyed the concept of “Darmok” and wish language issues came up more and the universal translator chips or systems were addressed more. A blend from native language to standard English in the beginning of some contacts would be a nice touch as well…
I look forward to the Darmok episode with no preconceptions. Whether it’s a favorable or unfavorable examination, chances are there’ll be something I simply hadn’t thought of (his eyes uncovered!), other than “If can only communicate by metaphor, how in the world can they build warp-capable starships?”
Original VHS Cover
Back of the Laserdisc
From the “Worf – Return to Grace” Laserdisc inside cover
Which also included these two previous episodes :
Which also Included THiS Exclusive Worf Action Figure !
The Columbia House Bumper :
Blu-Ray Inside Cover art
This episode’s additional connection to “Yesterday’s Enterprise” – was the re-use of this shot of Both the Enterprise D & The Excalibur ( aka the Ambassador Class Enterprise C ) used in that very episode!
Who redeemed who? My own take on this one was simply that redemption is overrated. Or rather, outside redemption is overrated. It always kind of bothered me that Captain Picard just let Worf back in without missing a beat, but…
You know, now I’m starting to think that Picard wanted Worf to see what he had told him in Sins of the Father and Reunion, that Worf’s honor is his own, no matter what the Empire might think. Worf still has a way to go and I would say it wasn’t until Way of the Warrior in DS9 when Captain Sisko makes it a point to tell Worf that he is what he is, a Starfleet officer, that Worf finally gets it and tells the Empire to go jump in a lake. But, this is the start, Worf is finally getting the notion that maybe he ISN’T like the other Klingons, and that’s not a bad thing. So which redemption is this episode talking about? Gowron restoring the family’s honor, or Worf redeeming his own honor and going back to where he belongs, on the bridge of the Enterprise?
1- This was a very suspenseful moment, Worf quit the Federation. When watching this live the months off it was difficult.
2- What a great way to reintroduce Denise. It is great to see that despite the rocky ending, she was able to come back to the show.
3- The whole shield thing. The entire time I was thinking, space is big, would they not just go around.
Was this the first time we saw someone “resign from Starfleet” by taking off their communicator? That action always bugged me. I get the parallel of a police officer turning in his badge, but considering how the communicator is used, why would you hand that in (and why would they let you).
the future..no paperwork…lol
As “we” go forward from here – “remember” :
The “Return to Grace” LD & VHS Collection (see pics Below) was basically Re-issued on DVD as Disc 2 in The Klingon Fan Collection Box -set. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/57a31d9a6d3e6cf29bf5a3411d4a19751392ded1a98685a8cb171edde46048ee.jpg
“Klingons do not laugh…”-
Yes they do, YOU did in Ten Forward drinking prune juice you fool!
Funny thing… Data is likely more powerful on the Enterprise than Riker or Picard since he is the one who manages the ship systems overall…
Also considering the ship computer listens to everything and probably sentient you think that the computer makes Hobson’s life hell? Like doesn’t open doors as quickly as it should or makes it’s replicated food be slightly off?
Original Press – release photo
At what point was it decided that Gowran was the “White Knight” Ken?
This is the same guy that attempted to bribe K’Ehleyr before he was even in power in “Reunion”
The problem with the Klingons is they really start to sound cartoonish. Over acting. On an absurd level. It takes an agonizing 28 minutes before you get some great acting from Dorn and Stewart, and the great moment when Worf resigns. A solid episode, but no danger of this being top 20. And there is really not enough to support 2 episodes.